In today’s post, I’m sharing a podcast interview that just went live this week, where I discuss with host of the Burnout Detox Kit Podcast, Sophie Theen, how hustling can give us momentum, but was never meant to be our permanent address.

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100 Liminal Days is an experimental project of embracing my current transitional season after exiting my business by sharing an honest, real-time account of my self-initiation experience in daily posts. I’m using The Artist’s Way as a guiding tool, and sending shorter weekly recaps only via my newsletter. Visit Day 1/100 to learn more and sign up to get the weekly recaps delivered to your inbox.

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This interview took place a few months ago, and went live yesterday. Since it had been a little while since I did this interview, I was very curious to be reminded of what I had to say! After listening, I found it funny that I was already talking about being in the liminal space and just being raw about how important it is to take steps to care for ourselves even if it means stepping out into the unknown.

In this vulnerable conversation, I talked about my burnout recovery, but admitted that making the changes necessary for my recovery also meant intentionally entering into a liminal season without knowing what might be on the other side.

You can listen to the episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. I’ve also included a portion of the transcript below.

Sophie:

Well, I’m genuinely so grateful that you’re here today, not just because you have the tools to share, but also you’re kind of still in it. You said that you are also still healing, trying to shake your new identity, which I know you’re very excited to talk about today.

There’s something really powerful about meeting people in transformation, in my all honesty, it’s a space where a lot of clarity lives. There’s a lot of, kind of like, surprising facts that we find out about ourselves, and you’ve brought that here in spades. So I am so excited to get started.

Amber:

So am I. Thank you so much. It’s it’s fun to get into meaty topics like this, so thank you.

How I Knew I Was Experiencing Burnout

Sophie:

So starting off, I often say that our body knows we’re burning out even before we dare to name it. And many, many times, people often are scared of even giving it a name or like calling it out, that this is what they’re feeling so that they don’t really have to address it. It’s a difficult fact to face, right? It’s striking also how burnout doesn’t always roar. It’s not loud, it’s not obvious, and it whispers. There’s silence, there’s stillness, and you don’t really know what’s going on with you.

So tell me, in your very own words, how did you come to a point where you realize I’m in it and I need to get out of it?

Amber:

I think that burnout is a really sneaky because I think probably most people experience that in those quiet moments where it’s sort of just there and you never knew it was there until one day. For me, it wasn’t really this epiphany that let me know like, OK, yes, I’m in this.

But maybe the first sign that something felt off would have been when I was on a vacation in Roatan, Honduras, supposed to be snorkeling and enjoying time. There was a group of friends together on this trip and I was spending a good portion of it asleep in the little cabana, and my friends were right outside having a great time.

And I’m inside sleeping just because that is just all I felt like I could do. And I also just had this like – I’m not a depressive type at all, but I did sort of feel like a, a little bit lower, like something I just wasn’t really myself. And it continued.

I did kind of start noticing, OK, maybe alcohol might be having a little bit of an effect on this. I had a friend that was recommending an app that helps you track your drinking. And so it started out as just like a little bit of awareness for me to start tracking how much I was consuming. And later I decided to take a three month commitment to not drink at all.

And honestly, that three months was when I started noticing a lot of a lot of other things. And so when I started noticing how I was feeling physically, it really opened up my eyes to think, OK, there’s something more to this than just me feeling tired and not feeling well and having some physical issues that were impairing my normal day-to-day.

Sophie:

I mean, what you’re really saying here, as you know, you kind of had to quit drinking, quit alcohol for you to start noticing the other things going on in your body. And what it sounds like is, you know, whether we believe it or not, lots of people have different coping mechanisms.

But most of the time they’re also numbing mechanisms, right? You take on something so that you spend your time and energy and effort in that very thing so that it distracts you from all of the other very important signals that your body is sending you or your mind is sending you.

Our Body Speaks

And for anybody who’s listening right now, anybody who’s kind of in the thick of it, what do you think they should know about this whole, “Is there something else that is distracting me from actually addressing what’s happening to me?”

Amber:

Yeah. Well, I think that just opening ourselves up to the idea that our body has a language as well and it’s speaking to us and actually paying attention to it.

I think so many of us sort of split and, you know, we focus on the things that our minds want to do and we ignore the things that our body wants and needs. And if you can sort of bring those two together, you become a more powerful human, I believe, because your awareness expands a little bit further so you’re able to understand things.

So if you’re in that state of coping, you’re actually losing part of your power as a human and our amazing body and mind, if you’re numbing that out. So if you can get over the pain of like, OK, this is going to be uncomfortable.

Just really recognizing that I can do so much more if I align with what my soul wants, my mind and my body, it’s all all together and they’re all working together. So for me, that’s what I would recommend to anyone that’s sort of afraid to stop anything that they may be doing to cope.

It’s just recognizing that there’s power on the other side of it.

Hustle Cannot Be a Constant State of Being

Sophie:

So there was also this line that you shared with me when we first chatted and I really want to come back to it. And I know there’s a huge story behind this in terms of how you got to where you are today. You said hustle is meant to give us momentum, but it cannot be a constant state of being. I mean, can I just put my hands up and say I’ve been hustling for as long as I am alive because I thought that was the only thing I needed to do?

It’s like it gives me power. It gives me autonomy. I feel like this is the thing to do. This is my whole identity until I kind of collapsed.

Unraveling from the Hustler Identity

Amber:

Yes, yes, it really is. And honestly, it’s, it’s so challenging to unravel from that because I think about my first job, I was 15 years old. I was working on a ranch doing manual labor moving scrap metal around and vaccinating bighorn sheep and planting trees in the river.

I mean, it sounds kind of cool, but it was really hard work. And that coupled with some parents that were also teaching me, oh, you, you need to go out there and do this work and do that work. And I was always in this, I had this high work ethic and it became a part of my belief system about myself.

I have good work ethic and every job that I had, I was always working hard. I would climb the ladders, I would be successful, all of those things. And even actually until maybe a year or so ago, my LinkedIn talked about this – about how that my work ethic is basically part of my personality, you know, like I really identified with it.

So it really was hard. And for me, operating from that started with really recognizing that my intrinsic value is not in my doing. So I had to get a little bit deeper. I did a lot of parts work.

If you’re familiar with Internal Family Systems, it’s a mode of therapy that really helped me a lot with just understanding what’s really going on in the inner world. And I’ll share one more thing on this. It’s just there’s a song by an artist named Toni Jones.

She has a song that’s called “Who am I without work?” And it talks about worth ethic versus work ethic. And there’s a line that says I’m a human being, not a human doing.

And if you can really embrace that truth that we are, our value is in us, whether we’re doing or not, and not put so much pressure on getting all the things done, it can be the beginning of that unraveling because it really does take a certain mindset to start separating from that identity of the hustler and to recognize that hustling is not bad, but we cannot stay in that state for so long.

Sophie:

Yes, I know that way too well. I mean, the reality is we wear hustle like a badge because it’s being celebrated in so many ways in today’s day and age, right?

Fear of being cold, lazy. We don’t hustle enough. We’re not tough enough, we’re not strong enough. I mean, I’ve heard everything under that umbrella spoken to me in so many words. And we tether our worth directly to our output. And I know we talk about this all the time, right?

But I think what we’re really seeing here is perhaps hustling is a season, it comes and goes and embrace it when it’s not here. And then you recover, you rebuild, find whatever fire you need to set you alive again and then you go again, right? It’s not necessarily like a fixed identity that this is all you are.

Amber:

That’s right. I think of the the natural order of nature. You know, there’s cycles and everything and so we have to recognize that nothing is going to keep going the same way all of the time.

And we, we can harness the energy of that hustle and get where we need to go, get that momentum that I was talking about. And then, you know, let’s find a way to stabilize after that because that’s not the stable state.

Discovering New Identities

Sophie:

So in your experience, obviously you’ve gone through all of it. Now, how did you begin untangling that or start? You know, I know that you recognize that wasn’t the right thing for you to do because your body was telling you and giving you signs to let go. But how did you come back to this realization that I can now be a whole different person, I can carry a completely different identity and still feel enough value, respect, confidence, and all of that jazz?

Amber:

Well, that’s where the the honest part about just still being right in the middle of it comes. I think that, like I said, just doing some inner work really is the beginning of it. And I’m personally still in the liminal space of it all. And my identity, I guess, feels like a loose thing.

It’s not something that I’m as I, I used to be like, yeah, I’m a CEO. I’m a founder of, you know, these are the things that I guess I plant my flag on. And now it’s OK – what do I stand for? What do I enjoy? What do I want to be known for?

And honestly, it’s a really exciting place because I have now an open book to be able to rewrite again. So I guess to answer the question, really it is just about getting in touch with what you really want, what you really need, not just what your body needs, but what you need to be happy.

There’s all kinds of different options for that, but really investing in yourself to take those steps to get to the answer is the beginning of that.

Sophie:

You said that there was this moment where you were filling out a form and there was this box next to the occupation. And for the first time for a long time, you didn’t know what to fill. So that was a real moment.

Amber:

It really was. The occupation line in a form can be a little intimidating for anyone that’s self-employed. I think sometimes like as a freelancer or something. But yeah, when I saw that on the form – it was for a yoga class and I just wrote “artist”, and then I didn’t really expect a follow up question, but he was like, oh, “what medium do you use?”

And now I feel kind of ashamed that I put that in there because I am painting and writing and doing different things, but I have never called myself an artist. So in some ways it really felt good to say that. And also because there’s so many different ways you can define what an artist is, it felt good to be truthful and also kind of broad so I’m not boxing myself in in any way.

Sophie:

Yeah, I said that it was so such a human move for you to tell me that story because it’s true there must be many of us who kind of like have felt in that same situation either they have felt like they were really lost in a work in a job or at work that no longer serves their purpose right.

They’re trying to find themselves again. It’s not necessarily that we have to go through burnout and quit your job and then kind of like half that buffer space to figure all of it out. They might still be in the thick of it because of circumstances. I can just imagine, you know from from your experience, like what would it need to take emotionally or even spiritually for anybody to kind of go, it’s OK to be on a new journey.

You Deserve to Be Happy, Make 1% Shifts

Amber:

Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is to recognize that you do deserve to be happy and you deserve to be healthy and safe and at peace. And if you can just make 1% moves all the time – a little 1% shift here and there to get a little bit closer to that.

I mean, recognize you deserve it first because if you don’t at least believe that, you’re not actually going to ever be able to move towards it. But if you believe it, then you can just take a little step. It might be, you know what? I just need to go outside in between these two meetings and get some fresh air.

That might be your 1% that day. And that’s OK. So just just acknowledging that it’s going to take some baby steps, It’s going to take some time and just do what you can to create the conditions that give you that safety and health and and peace. That would be my advice to anyone doing this and I’m saying that to myself right now.

Sophie:

Good, good. And let’s make sure we do that to ourselves without any apology as well. Let’s not make excuses for ourselves that we owe it to someone else to shape our identity. This is all completely in our control.

Amber:

Yes, I think self love goes a long way. I know there’s a lot of woo woo stuff you can you can look at out there, but it really does make a difference because you’re going to feel valued yourself and you’re going to do things to share that value with other people if you feel that.

Sophie:

Yeah, I agree with you. I I’m in a season where I would take any woo woo. At this point, I need to to fill my bucket because you know what? At the end of the day, I have to feel good first.

Amber:

That’s right. That’s right. I always talk about a ripple effect – I end up using water analogies a lot. I think about a trickle down and if the person at the top is not healthy and well, then anyone you’re leading is also going to feel the effects of that. So it starts here and then you can work your way out as that ripple effect can happen.

Recovery is a Process

Sophie:

Amber, you also mentioned something I definitely don’t want to miss discussing in today’s show is that you said I’m still healing and I’m being very honest about my journey, but I haven’t had it all figured out yet.

I think this was the most powerful thing that I think people need to be hearing. I’ve spoken to so many people and then they asked me, oh, how are you doing, Sophie? Because I kind of made my burnout quite public. And we talk about it. I’m having multiple conversations continuously, but at some point the conversation always ends with, So you’re OK now?

Well, I kind of picked myself up, dusted off what I didn’t want, I carried on, but it doesn’t mean I’m fully OK, right? And I think there is power in recognizing that resilience can be rebuilt, but there is also power in recognizing that it’s OK that I’m still healing.

Amber:

Yes, it absolutely is. I mean, actually yesterday I, I hadn’t slept very well the night before and I just had that anxiety feeling, you know, I just wasn’t feeling very good. And it was similar to the things I was experiencing in the heat of the biggest part of my burnout stuff like I was feeling little touches of that yesterday.

And I had to really take a step back and do something to help me feel better. So regulating my nervous system through Qigong is actually one of my favorite practices. It’s an ancient Chinese practice that combines gentle movements – it’s very easy – anyone can do it – as well as some intentional breathing. And that has been something that’s really helped me recognize, yes, I’m in the healing space and there is something I can always do to make myself feel a little bit better. And so for me, it has been a a big focus on noticing my body, noticing what my body is communicating, addressing those feelings and then using my mind to figure out, OK, what’s my next big move?

Because I still am a high achiever. Yes, I don’t want to burn out again. I don’t want to hustle all the time, but I still want to do some really big things. And that’s going to happen because I’m taking care of myself in a new way.

Sophie:

Yeah, in a way, you’re trying to recalibrate yourself before you go again. And for anybody who’s in the thick of it right now or they’re standing in between that space, what would you say to them?

Amber:

Yeah, I think, well, I answered this to some degree, but it comes back to just recognizing you deserve to be happy, and taking steps to make a change. It’s not going to change if you keep staying in the same situation. So we’ve got to look for something and it may not be as big as oh, I’ve got to leave this job. That’s not an option for some people – even for me, it took more than a year to actually do that.

So that can’t always be the solution, but in the meantime, we’ve got to just find little ways to make ourselves feel that 1% shift. I think that’s the best advice I can give for anyone that’s feeling right in the middle of it because we just need a little step.

Little push, little push. I know that it’s all OK, you can get through this.

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